What Makes a Complete Collection?

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What Makes a Complete Collection?

Post by bassman8866 on Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:13 am

I had an argument with a friend this morning about what COMPLETE means. He claimed that in order for me to finish my zelda collection, I had to own not only all the major titles, but games like Soul Calibur 2 and the Super Smash Series because it has Link in the game. I dont think so.

Should a complete mario collection include super smash, mario golf, mario tennis and mario kart?

Whats a does complete mean?
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Re: What Makes a Complete Collection?

Post by violentsnake on Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:40 am

bassman8866 wrote:I had an argument with a friend this morning about what COMPLETE means. He claimed that in order for me to finish my zelda collection, I had to own not only all the major titles, but games like Soul Calibur 2 and the Super Smash Series because it has Link in the game. I dont think so.

Should a complete mario collection include super smash, mario golf, mario tennis and mario kart?

Whats a does complete mean?

I am crazy when it comes to Metal Gear, but I do not consider items such as these part of a "complete" MG collection:

Super Smash Brothers Brawl (snake in it)
Snake's Revenge (non-kojima sequel)
Konami Racers (I think that's the name, Gray Fox is a playable racer)


I *DO* consider games with demos pertaining to the series part of the collection. Example, Zone of Enders has an MGS2 demo, so I consider it a Metal Gear series collectable because it's the first time users could play MGS2. Plus it's a standalone extra disc inside the case.

I think it's a matter of opinion. If you think it's good enough, don't listen to anyone else.

Soul Calibur 2 is an awesome game though. I've been playing Part 4 like crazy lately. It's the game that finally got me to stop playing MGS4 (as much).
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Re: What Makes a Complete Collection?

Post by Jaffar Sholva on Sat Aug 09, 2008 6:42 pm

Interesting question. I don't think you can have a collection complete, espacially not Mario or Zelda. Complete means for me all versions (PAL, US, JAP, different versions of PAL and so on...). Then they have to be sealed, you should have all merchandise (statues but also things liek Soul Calibur)... Or you contain a collection saying I only collect PAL for example. But even there it is impossible to have a collection complete. Or you collect a new label (right word?), for example Gears of War.
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Re: What Makes a Complete Collection?

Post by Startyde on Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:55 pm

No Liquid, are you playing on PS3? Add me as a friend, Startyde. I'll challenge you sometime :P
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Re: What Makes a Complete Collection?

Post by violentsnake on Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:21 pm

Startyde wrote:No Liquid, are you playing on PS3? Add me as a friend, Startyde. I'll challenge you sometime :P

Y'know what, I NEVER play online. The only thing that catches my interested at all online is Mario Kart, but even that didn't last. I don't even know if I have a name on PS3's network heh.
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Re: What Makes a Complete Collection?

Post by striker on Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:36 pm

Funny, Mario Kart is about the only online game I play as well (mario strikers had my attention for a bit but I got tired of it).

Soul Calibur IV online is dreadful here in Canada. I always get "Session Full" when I join a game, even if it isn't full.

Only way I can play is to create a session and even then it's hit and miss.

Startyde I will add you though and we will play.

No KILIK though I beg of you!!!
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Re: What Makes a Complete Collection?

Post by bassman8866 on Sun Aug 10, 2008 4:50 pm

Jaffar Sholva wrote:Interesting question. I don't think you can have a collection complete, espacially not Mario or Zelda. Complete means for me all versions (PAL, US, JAP, different versions of PAL and so on...). Then they have to be sealed, you should have all merchandise (statues but also things liek Soul Calibur)... Or you contain a collection saying I only collect PAL for example. But even there it is impossible to have a collection complete. Or you collect a new label (right word?), for example Gears of War.

Then that sucks... If I wanted a complete mario collection that means Id have to own NWC 1990.....
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Re: What Makes a Complete Collection?

Post by Gemini-Phoenix on Sun Aug 10, 2008 5:38 pm

If it's sub-collections we're talking about, then I personally like to include any games that include playable cameo's. For example, as part of my Pokemon collection I would also include Super Smash Bros, especially seeing as Pokemon feature heavily in the game. I would also include Soul Calibur II as part of a Zelda collection seeing as Link features heavily in the game as well

However, I wouldn't include Tetris as a Metroid game, even though Samus is seen in one screen in the game as an NPC, and likewise, I wouldn't include Link's Awakening as a Mario game for featuring Goomba's and Yoshi.

I think it's personal preference really. Some people are content with one thing, whilst others might like more of a challenge. Take Pokemon for example again - Some Pokemon collector's might also include the Pokemon Mini games, and even import games. Personally I am happy with a set of all PAL games, but some collector's might want to import Pokemon Green from Japan or Hey You! Pikachu from America. Final Fantasy is another gerat example - You may be happy with all the post-PlayStation releases, or like our resident DJ Villa, you may want to collect every single FF game ever made, including Platinum rereleases and import variations


One last example: I have a Mario Party sub-collection (By default, simply because I like the games), and I have the following Mario Party games:

  • Mario Party II (N64)
  • Mario Party III (N64)
  • Mario Party IV (GameCube)
  • Mario Party V (GameCube)
  • Mario Party VI (GameCube)
  • Mario Party VII (GameCube)
  • Mario Party VIII (Wii)
  • Mario Party Advance (GBA)
  • Mario Party DS (DS)
  • Mario Party-e (eReader)


To me, this is an almost complete sub-collection, and I am only missing Mario Party I. However, the completist in me may later decide to get hold of Mario Party IV and V as Player's Choice versions
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Re: What Makes a Complete Collection?

Post by Startyde on Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:10 pm

striker wrote:Funny, Mario Kart is about the only online game I play as well (mario strikers had my attention for a bit but I got tired of it).

Soul Calibur IV online is dreadful here in Canada. I always get "Session Full" when I join a game, even if it isn't full.

Only way I can play is to create a session and even then it's hit and miss.

Startyde I will add you though and we will play.

No KILIK though I beg of you!!!

The key is to create your own session and have people connect to you. The session is always full when I try and join too.

Don't worry about me being Kilik, you have more to worry about. I'm a nightmare (no pun indended) with Siegfred. Kilik, Cervantes, Mitsu players are so predictable with their spams, I destroy them without even thinking. Apparently they don't teach low block or side step to fighters these days.
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Re: What Makes a Complete Collection?

Post by striker on Sun Aug 10, 2008 8:45 pm

kilik is a newbie's delight. One button and he does 5 hits, low - mid - low - low etc. Perfect for the laggy online games where actual skill combos are near impossible to do and dial-a-combos such as his reign supreme.
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Re: What Makes a Complete Collection?

Post by The Imp on Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:24 pm

I've pondered this question heavily myself, since my whole collection revolves entirely around franchises.

There are a couple of rules you can devise. The important thing is to be consistent, but sometimes flexibility is important.

My general rule is that it must meet two of the following three conditions to be included in its own franchise:
1. Have the character or series name in the title.
2. Have one or more playable or significant characters from the series playable or significantly involved in the game.
3. Have one or more playable or significant characters from the series, or their logo, appear on the box artwork.

Rules two and three seem a little strange when you first consider them, but are essential to avoid bizarre paradoxes. Even with those rules, I can still think of worthwhile exceptions to most franchises with more than a handful of games.

Consider Yoshi. Is a Yoshi game also automatically a Mario game? Is a Mario game that includes Yoshi automatically a Yoshi game? Is Yoshi's Safari a Mario Game? Is Super Mario World 2 a Yoshi game? Is Tetris Attack either? What about Super Smash Bros.?

Then there is Wario. Finding where the Mario games stop and the Wario games start is even more convoluted, especially with games like Mario Party or Super Mario Land 2.

In the case of Super Smash Bros, you could argue Link fails rules one and two. Personally, I promote Super Smash Bros. to be a universe unto itself.

In the case of SoulCalibur 2, you could argue that only one 'variant' (that is, the GameCube version) fits rules two and three, and that other releases of SoulCalibur 2 invalidate the association.

There are other rules that are sometimes used that can be useful. See, if you're collecting *Metal Gear Solid* games, as distinct from *Solid Snake* games, then Super Smash Bros. Brawl could be left out, even though Solid Snake fits two rules. Essentially, you'd be slightly modifying the above rules two and three to require, not that a major character appear, but that a major storyline continuity exist (which isn't the case).

It can also be helpful to narrow or widen the franchise or series to encompass more or less games, as you think appropriate. Gemini-Phoenix already mentioned Mario Party as a good example. Another example might be dividing the whole superorder or Final Fantasy into their individual numbers (for example, X-2 is a Final Fantasy X game), or game worlds (Tactics is an Ivallace Alliance game), or even characters (I've heard the argument that it's not a 'real' Final Fantasy game unless there's a Cid in it). Then again, you could widen a franchise like, say, Mushroom Kingdom, to sidestep the whole Mario, Yoshi, Wario, Peach, etc. problem mentioned above. Or a hybrid approach. Heck, for a tiny number of doomed systems, it might even make sense to ranks them by hardware (such as the Virtual Boy or 64DD, or peripherals such as the Super Scope or R.O.B.).

Also mentioned was collecting by developer (individual superstars like Kojima or Carmack, or teams like Project Soul or Sonic Team, or studios/companies/publishers like Rare or Capcom). This can often make much more sense, but the paper trail can be difficult to follow, and often leaves out important games that make sense to collect. Not that any system is without its problems…

Trust me, even hardcore collectors usually define limits on their collections. Street Fighter nuts don't automatically extend their collections to the whole SNK universe because of a couple of crossovers (though true fighting game fans will often have large stacks of SNK games anyway); same with the Namco (now Namco-Bandai!) crossover and the Marvel universe. Imagine a Street Fighter fan having to collect Spiderman games or XenoSaga games or Gundam games or such, because they resolves to get everything that touched Street Fighter, and then followed the chain to it's logical conclusion.

Things do get especially wacky when you have to include mobile phone games or LCD handhelds or other such games, though. There is also the issue of when exactly a game stops being a game (there's the example of a Japanese Gameboy Mario cartridge, but what it actually is, is a game that programs patterns for a sewing machine. No, really!).


Last edited by The Imp on Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:47 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling & Clarification)

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Re: What Makes a Complete Collection?

Post by Gemini-Phoenix on Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:32 pm

I find you wouldn't really collect one without the other. It the cases of Wario and Yoshi, most often than not you'll collect these because you like or collect Mario games

Personally I don't ccount Marioland II: Six Golden Coins as a Wario game, as he is Mario's nemesis, although the Warioland games are the beginning of his franchise as he is the anti-hero. As I said above though, most of the time it's irrelevant because you'll most likely be collecting Mario games as well, and there's plenty of room for cross-overs
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Re: What Makes a Complete Collection?

Post by Forgotten_Freshness on Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:04 pm

Startyde wrote:No Liquid, are you playing on PS3? Add me as a friend, Startyde. I'll challenge you sometime :P


Can I add you too? I need new people to smash.


OHHHH! Very Happy


(PSN is Frankosaurus)

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Re: What Makes a Complete Collection?

Post by The Imp on Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:17 am

> I find you wouldn't really collect one without the other. It the cases of Wario and Yoshi, most often than not you'll collect these because you like or collect Mario games

Yeah, perhaps; I was simply pointing out that any rule system cannot cover any non-trivial series easily. It demonstrates the difficulty with fine-grained division, where it becomes difficult to determine which series a game belongs to. Super Mario Land 2 stars Yoshi, but plays fundamentally like a Mario game. But Tetris Attack is just the US release of Panel de Pon with a Super Mario World 2 skin; it plays nothing like any other Mario game. So is it a Mario game? But then, is it a Yoshi game? If you don't like puzzle games, then what to you do about Yoshi's Cookie? Dr. Mario?

> Personally I don't count Marioland II: Six Golden Coins as a Wario game, as he is Mario's nemesis, although the Warioland games are the beginning of his franchise as he is the anti-hero. As I said above though, most of the time it's irrelevant because you'll most likely be collecting Mario games as well, and there's plenty of room for cross-overs

The Wario distinction was also just an offhand demonstration, but certainly: the Wario Land games play very much like classic Mario games, so would you count them as such? Super Mario Land 2 co-stars (a non-playable) Wario; Super Mario Land 3 stars only Wario. Does staring Wario make Super Mario Land 3 a Wario title, or does having the words "Super Mario Land" in the title make it a Mario Game? Since you're likely to enjoy Super Mario Land 3 if you enjoyed Super Mario Land 2, this is an unimportant distinction for the most part, except that, what do you do about, say, Wario Land 2? If you included the previous games as Mario games because you liked them, and you like Mario games, then how do you justify a non-Mario-staring, non-Mario-titular game that plays exactly like a classic Mario game? But if all Wario games are a subset of Mario games, then you get things like Wario Ware that play nothing at all like Mario games. You might head this off by splitting Wario games in "Wario Land" and "Wario Ware" franchises, but then, what about Mario & Wario, a game that stars Mario, but has Wario in the title and as the only significant non-playable character (in most respects more important in the game than Mario, who actually doesn't have to be played at all, and isn't the main star in any case), and has a gameplay style that is completely unlike any other Mario or Wario game. What about Wario Blast Featuring Bomberman, which plays exactly like Bomberman, but has Wario in the game, on the cover and in the title? Then there's Wario's Woods…

Also, if you try some sort of chain of custody, arguing that Wario and Yoshi are spin-offs from Mario because they were first guest-stars in Mario games, you get nonsense logic, such as Mario being a subset of Donkey Kong, or if you do it by in-game universe, almost everything by Nintendo becomes a spin-off of Super Smash Bros., etc.

No to discount your opinion, at all; almost everyone agrees as you say, that Super Mario Land 2 is a Mario game, Super Mario Land 3 is a Wario game, who cares about the games' title or non-playable characters? It's just that if the rule is arbitrary (this game yes, that game no, there is no pattern; it's just because I say so), then the question "What Makes a Complete Collection?" is meaningless because it is implicitly complete simply by the collector saying that it is. I was simply pointing out the two facts I raised; 1) careful logic, consistently applied, makes almost every puzzle simple, and 2) every non-trivial practical application will have an exception, where applying the previous logic will have you off on a tangent collection games you don't like or will never play, unless you put your foot down and (paradoxically) make an arbitrary determination, but in the form of a new, consistent rule.

At the end of the day, it's your collection, so it's your rules. "I like this game; I don't like that game" is a perfectly valid reason to exclude something from a collection. So is "This is part of the franchise, but that is part of another franchise, because…" is also perfectly valid, if you are consistent. You'll always find people that will disagree with your determination; that's fine, it's *your* collection.

bassman8866, the ruleset you probably want is something like:
To be a Legend Of Zelda title, a game must:
1) The "The Legend Of Zelda" in the title
2) Appear on a Nintendo system
3) Be available for purchase at retail
4) Not be on a self-contained system/not be a non-removable game

This works like so:
1) excludes Super Smash Bros. and Soul Calibur 2., and Link's Crossbow Training (and the Tingle spin-offs, if you would otherwise include them)
2) excludes the CD-i abominations
3) excludes the SatelliView-X games
4) Excludes the LCD Game & Watch and wristwatch games.

I cannot detect any collateral damage with that ruleset (unless you want Link's Crossbow Training, in which case, modify Rule 1 to: Has "The Legend Of Zelda" in the title, or stars Link as the *main* protagonist)

Few people would reasonably argue with that ruleset, and you're now armed with logic if anyone does. The argument shifts from "your collection is/isn't complete" to "what is/isn't considered a Zelda game?", which should be more interesting and less depressing, and perhaps even enlightening.

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Re: What Makes a Complete Collection?

Post by Gemini-Phoenix on Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:53 am

For me, as far as a "Complete" collection of UK released Zelda games goes, I would include Smash Bros and Link's Crossbow Training and Tingle. I would be happy that it was "Complete" then. But... As an afterthought, I would then include the CDi games and also any import games, but these would not be necessary in order for me to consider the collection complete. However, I wouldn't consider it complete unless I have all released iterations of the games, which included original black label releases and also Player's Choice releases.

The Game & Watch and Wristwatch G&W's I would consider to be separate, in much the same way you would consider a motorcycle different from a car,although still both motor vehicles. These are nice additions to compliment a collection, nothing more. I do agree that they would be classed as part of the Zelda history though, the same as the CDi games are, but they are nothing more than what we consider as simple mini-games these days. Likewise, I wouldn't include Pokemon Mini games in my Pokemon sub-collection, as they are technically the same as Game & Watch's.
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